Is working with your spouse a recipe for disaster or success? Tune in to hear first hand stories of this daring leap!
We have a unique treat for today’s episode of Influence By Design. Samantha is joined by her co-host and husband, Leon Flitton, and special guests Joy and Brian Bufalini. They will dive into the intriguing dynamics of couples who not only share their lives but also their businesses.
What happens when corporate veterans join entrepreneurial ventures? How do they navigate the complex interplay of professional and personal boundaries?
Navigating the intertwining paths of love and business isn’t for the faint-hearted, but it can be incredibly rewarding. It requires patience, respect, and a deep understanding of each other’s strengths and weaknesses.
If you’re considering bringing your partner into your business, remember that it’s not just about sharing workloads but about growing together in new and challenging ways.
IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL DISCOVER:
- Leon and Brian’s transition from corporate to business life (00:31)
- Initial thoughts about leaving corporate for a more unpredictable entrepreneurial path (02:08)
- Brian’s day one — a drastic shift from corporate marketing to managing household responsibilities and feeling like a pure expense (06:29)
- Joy discusses their shift in roles and the new dynamics at play (08:21)
- Leon’s day one — the surreal experience of transitioning from a structured retail management role to working with his entrepreneurial wife, feeling excited yet lost (11:21)
- The ego hit men can experience when transitioning from corporate leadership to a supportive role in their partner’s business (13:27)
- The challenge of separating business life from personal life and learning to navigate this blending of roles (20:29)
- Strategies for maintaining personal time and space (29:35)
- How anticipating friction can help manage it in your team dynamics (40:06)
- “Storming, norming, performing” — practical ways to handle friction in both business and personal life (46:15)
- An amusing anecdote illustrating the proactive mindset of entrepreneurs (54:56)
QUOTES
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WHERE TO FIND JOY & BRIAN BUFALINI
- Website: https://joybufalini.com/
- LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joybufalini/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianbufalini/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joy.bufalini/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joy.bufalini/
CONNECT WITH SAMANTHA RILEY
Facebook: Samantha Riley
Instagram: @thesamriley
LinkedIn: Samantha Riley
Twitter: @thesamriley
TRANSCRIPTION
Samantha Riley 0:02
Welcome to today’s episode of Influence By Design. I’m your host, Samantha Riley. And today I’ve got a very special episode because I’ve got three guests with me. So I’ve got kind of a co host, my beautiful husband Leon Flitton. So welcome, Leon.
Leon Flitton
Thank you.
Samantha Riley
And I’ve also invited Joy and Brian Bufalini to join me. So Joy and Brian, welcome. It’s great to have you here.
Joy Bufalini 0:29
Good to be here.Thanks, I’m excited about this conversation.
Samantha Riley 0:31
So this is a conversation that came up when Joy and I were speaking together a few months ago, just after and something else that we were doing. And we were talking about how both of our husbands work with us. And I went, how cool would it be if we had a conversation about this? I said, you know, because I was chatting and I said Leon came from corporate. We had a few hiccups in the early days. And she went, well guess what? So did we, and I went, well, let’s have this conversation. Because I know that there is many, many people that want their partner to come into the business with them, either their husband or their wife. And they’re a bit afraid of what could happen. And you know, it’s not all a bed of roses, but for us, we absolutely love it. I’m gonna guess you guys do too, seeing you’re still working together. But just having a conversation about what that transition is like.
Brian Bufalini 1:30
Yeah. I doubt we would be talking today if we weren’t.
Samantha Riley 1:34
That would have been a little creepy, right? But a conversation to inspire people that yeah, this can happen. And you know, it works for us. So I want to, I would like to actually start with you Joy. At the time that you thought, you know, it might be good to bring Brian into the business. What were the thoughts you were having before this conversation?
Joy Bufalini 1:59
Is this crazy?
Samantha Riley 2:02
Oh, I know that this is going to be all sorts of crazy.
Joy Bufalini 2:08
So it’s kind of interesting how it sort of unfolded because in 2018, we had done a few projects together, like more officially some marketing endeavours together. We experienced the initial friction of like, well, here’s how we do it. And like, no, here’s how I do it. And I made the money doing it this way. And like fine, you know, experiencing that initial friction, which was good. And like, you know, maybe eventually what does this look like? But Brian had a secure, well paying job with benefits, he didn’t, he did not like it. But I did outpace him, of course. And it was just like this, this makes sense to maybe look at resources here. In 2019, we decided we’re going to move from cold dreary Pennsylvania to move near the beach in Florida. So Brian told his boss, I’m on virtual, you know, as of June 2019. And they needed him like, okay, fine, just don’t leave. But then the company sort of changed. And we started having conversations. Brian, you remember these walks we took of like, what if? You know, like, what if we just brought your skills into the business? It seems like things have stabilised. And it felt scary, though, like letting go of that secure paycheck and the health insurance and all of that. But remember this conversation what we said on this walk Brian, of like, what if? What was the what if? I’ll let you say it.
That’s an understatement. That walk, I remember saying like, we were feeling clearer and clearer. And I remember on that walk saying, whatever, whatever happens in the world, we will figure it out and be okay. And three months later, the pandemic happened. And layoffs at his work happened and who knows what and like, everything became uncertain, like, okay, we’re in this together, you know, and like, really in this together now. And it was the perfect time. It was the perfect time to have made that decision for sure.
Samantha Riley 4:18
So isn’t that interesting that you’ve wanted to do it for such a long time and the universe forced your hand? Leon, I think it’s about time that you told your story, because you’ve got a similar story. Because we’ve been talking about it for a really long time about you coming into the business. And similarly, we had been working on projects together. And then one day I had a phone call, I will just pass it to you and let you tell the story.
Leon Flitton 4:49
Yeah, well, I think I’d been working in the business for a while, as it was anyway, you know, a bit of a side gig kind of thing. Because funnily enough, I was actually the podcast editor for quite a while. So, but in this particular day, you know, things change, companies restructure all that kind of stuff. And there was a choice. And like, I could have stayed, I could have gone, could have gone either way. And I just was like, Nope, I’m going. And I’m out. And that was it. But I just wanted to ask Brian as well, like that point where you go, No, I’m out. That freaked you out?
Brian Bufalini 5:28
Yeah, Phantom of the Opera, no turning back now. Because we just watched that. And go. And we’ve been having those songs in our head, ever since it drives us nuts. But yeah, there’s no turning back. And you’ve crossed that bridge. And now you stand and watch it burn is the way the lyric goes. That’s literally what it feels like. It’s like there is no turning back here. And the first thing that you think about, his health insurance, at least from over the years, and it’s, instead of, you know, like, 500 US dollars a month that I’m putting into it. Now, it’s $2,000 a month that I get to pay all by myself. And I’m suddenly going from an earner to a pure expense for our entire health.
Joy Bufalini 6:16
You were not on the payroll, right? Yeah.
Brian Bufalini 6:20
I am literally just an expense. I think I still am, but …
Samantha Riley 6:29
Yeah, it does require a really big shift mentally. And I’m going to ask, because I know from our perspective kind of how this happened. In the transition, Brian, in that very first day, where it’s like, okay, I finished my job. I’m now in the business. So I’m talking like, day one, you wake up, you’re I’m like, Oh, I’m in the business now. What were the thoughts that were going through your head?
Brian Bufalini 6:55
Well, I’ll tell you, I had basically three best friends. And that was my real estate agent, my accountant, and my insurance agent. And those are the only things I worked on. And the entire first month is trying to figure out how do I take care of my family and make sure everything’s taken care of from an insurance standpoint, and then we had just moved, and we’re looking to make another move. And then your accountant is involved. And he’s helping us because we’re new in Florida and all that type of thing as it is like, this is nothing like I used to. I used to be in corporate marketing, I used to, you know, help salespeople do a lot of great things with medical products, and helping people in hospitals and all sorts of good things. And now, my three best friends are people you would never think are your best friends.
Joy Bufalini 7:40
And you’re in your office.
Brian Bufalini 7:46
By myself and my cats, that was it, they were all over the place. And, and so there’s this nervous energy about it. But when you realise that the thing that helped me most is to like get down on paper everything I was supposed to be working on. And so I typed out a big note. And it helped me to prioritise that. So the first month, that’s what got me through it. But it was, there were a lot of nerves and butterflies. And did I make a mistake, is something often came up in the first couple of days for sure.
Samantha Riley 8:18
Yeah, totally.
Joy Bufalini 8:21
And the change was to like instead of like the to dues coming from your MBOs or from, you know, your boss or the team, suddenly I’m like, Hey, honey, we need this done. Hey, honey, you know, like, that was a very different dynamic too. Also, I want to acknowledge, became Mr. Mom. So in a lot of ways, like our three kids were still home, even though in high school, we have a daughter with complex disabilities who requires extra care, and he could keep his eye on her while I’m, you know, having coaching sessions. So we completely flipped, I completely stopped cooking. We already had a house cleaner and things like that. But he was like, kids need picked up from here, there, like he completely took over that responsibility, which is, that’s quite a role us women play when we have kids at home too. So like big kudos to him, stepped right into those shoes. So I could focus on the business. And we expanded a lot that year in 2020. Because I could just be focused right on that. And it’s almost like we reversed roles in a lot of ways. Yeah. These things, he was doing it on the side, I was full time go in my office and you know, work all day, which I enjoyed. And the kids were well taken care of, you know, as well.
Samantha Riley 9:32
Yeah, it’s a big energy shift, isn’t it? And unless you’ve been through it, it’s really hard to understand it. And so from your perspective, Joy and I will come to you in a minute Leon. What was it like for you, and I’m talking like that day one where all of a sudden Brian’s like, I’m here. How did that feel for you?
Joy Bufalini 9:52
You know, it’s funny I don’t remember a day, one, because like our roles were already starting to shift before there was just like, okay, you know, January 1, you know, you’re no longer employed by that company. It was just interesting. I don’t think I noticed it as much. It was just more like, I have more support. This is great. So, yeah, but I didn’t honestly initially feel any fear or concern, I felt pretty confident in our plan. And that, you know, we’d been married at that point, 20, almost 25 years, we’d known each other since we were in junior high, and just beautiful. Even the fact we’d stayed together, like, the odds were against us having a child with complex disabilities, the divorce rate is so much higher. So I like okay, we made it through that, we stayed together, you know, we got stronger. We, you know, we can navigate this, not everybody can, not everybody has the personality. We can both be strong willed and buck against each other. But, you know, I’m sure we’ll talk more about how to make it work practically.
Samantha Riley 11:01
Like, oh, boy, have I got some stories.
Brian Bufalini
We don;t even have enough time today.
Samantha Riley
A 24-hour podcast.
Joy Bufalini 11:15
The Truman Show. You have everything that you really …
Samantha Riley 11:21
Love that. So Leon, can you remember that day one, because for us, we didn’t have a pandemic that I think like added that different energy. It was like, one day you were at work, and the very next day you weren’t. And so it was kind of a bit of a shock for us. I was super excited. I’m like, Oh, my God, the universe, I love you so much for doing this. But from your perspective, and I want to know, like, just day one, what was coming up for you? Because I know that there was some big energy you were dealing with.
Leon Flitton 11:55
Yeah. So I’ve actually been in retail for, it was almost 30 years, it was ridiculous. It was a long time. And in retail, everything’s, in particular, everything was like mapped out. You just knew, this has to happen, then essentially, now you check this list to do that. It is and it’s all just, you know, it’s the same. And then I think, and I was the boss, right? So I was always the boss or the last whatever, 20 some five years, you know, that I worked there for. Then it wasn’t the boss anymore. That was a bit odd. But I think you know, just going okay, so there’s, there’s no, you don’t have to go anywhere. You don’t have to go to this particular thing, do this particular job in front of me, this particular person. It was a bit odd. It was a bit weird. A little bit surreal, I suppose. And I don’t think I’d quite got what Sam was on about if there was a bit of a, you know, the corporate guy and entrepreneur girl kind of thing going on, like I, you know, going back aways. I remember when we first started going out, I didn’t really understand your world at all.
Samantha Riley 13:06
Not at all.
Leon Flitton 13:10
Yeah, so yeah. So but even that being like, you know, that point there where it was like, well, these opportunities just, let’s go now. And that day one, and it was a bit surreal, very exciting. And I was probably a bit lost, actually.
Samantha Riley 13:27
Yeah, I’m glad that you said that, a bit lost. And the reason that I’m glad that you said that, and I remember I flew down to Melbourne to go to an event. And the person that picked me up from the airport has been a very good friend of mine, had met her at a mastermind years ago. And her two daughters are working with her. And I remember actually speaking with her daughter, who I’d known for a long time, because we’d gone overseas together. And I sort of said, you know, how do you go working with your mum, because Leon has just started working in the business. And I feel like he’s really struggling and struggling from the perspective of all of a sudden, he wasn’t in charge of hundreds of people like he had been, he was working with me. And I didn’t want him to feel like I was constantly saying, I need you to do this. I need you to do this. We’re doing this, like from a, you know, from a man’s standpoint that I didn’t think that that was a very nice position to be in. And whilst it wasn’t, it wasn’t affecting our relationship, I could actually see it was affecting him a little bit. So, and she said to me, the first month is so hard. She said, I had no idea what to do. I felt like I was letting mum down. I felt like I was the weak link. And she said, I gave it a month and it all just worked out. So she said just understand and she explained to me from her perspective, what had been like leaving corporate, and she said, you know, give him grace in this area. This is probably how he’s feeling you know, he’s probably feeling really lost and he’s probably feeling like he doesn’t know what to do, and she was so instrumental in helping us through that first month. So I’m really grateful that I had that opportunity. So I guess that was kind of what I was wondering if Brian, if you had those same feelings of like, I can’t think of the word like, feeling like, is this the right move for me personally and emotionally from being in a position of leadership into, oh, this is a really different dynamic.
Brian Bufalini 15:34
So yes, I completely agree with that sentiment. It is a huge ego hit. It’s a terrible feeling. And the more responsibility you have, as Leon, as you can understand here, the more responsibility you have, and the more you’ve grown in your career, and higher up you go, the worse it is when you leave it, and you’re you’re going, you’re going from the stability financially, you know, since you know, Joy is the entrepreneur, which is, by definition, never stable, right? Because you’re always on, it’s always up to you, right? And but that’s the glorious part of being an entrepreneur is like you’re making your future. And that’s why we do what we do, right. But the stability, it comes, you have to take that as part of the package. This is part of the package. So when I, you know, I left my corporate career, I ran a $2 billion program, was responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing, for the products and services that we were responsible for. And then the very next day, I’m responsible for taking the kids to school and getting them off the bus. The contrast was stark, and you felt it keenly, that I am not the person I was. And of course, I was that same person, I didn’t feel that way. And I felt and I felt like, wow, I’ve given all this up. And now I’m making lunch for the kid. Now I’m doing all those things that Joy did. And so it gave me a great sense in that first year of what being a mom was all about. And I thought I knew. And I figured out that I had no idea how hard moms everywhere work, because they work and they’re mom. And when you’re just a dad, literally, you’re just a dad, comparatively. It’s not to put ourselves down, but it gave me a great respect even more for Joy and moms do. So it is definitely going to be an ego hit. And I wrote that down to say that, and you segued perfectly into that, Samantha, that, if you’re looking, if people are looking at, hey, I want to I want to make this move. Just prepare yourself ahead of time that that’s going to be a hit to your ego and then to remember what you’re doing it for. If you end up doing it is that you have a bigger vision, you believe in your partner and what they’re doing and what they see and what you see for them and what you see for yourself being involved in it too. And I’m the back office, Joy’s the face of the business, thank God and I’m the back office, right, so and so being comfortable with that, and knowing that ahead of time is really going to help someone make that transition from corporate into bus driver, you know, and, and grocery getter and, you know, hey, you have to repair this and and call the AC people and, you know, because I’ve got to work today. Wait a minute, I have to work.
Joy Bufalini 18:48
And I need his lead page, and I need this invoice sent and you know, like …
Samantha Riley 18:53
All the things. Yeah, exactly.
Brian Bufalini 18:57
Leon, I wanna ask you, were you the catch all department? Or was it really felt …
Leon Flitton 19:04
Yeah, I think it probably did start out that way. Because I think with me not knowing what to do, ended up just doing like, Sam told me to do, which is fine, because that worked out pretty well. But we did something similar. Sam’s got a dance background. And as most people know, I hope most people know and you know, it’s an amazing career. And it was always front stage. That’s Sam and backstage, that’s me. So I think you’ve redefined how you think about things because as a leader in the business, in the retail business, when I was in corporate, that was, you’re there as a leader to support your staff to do the job you need them to do. And so I think about this way now, I’m the person that’s there to support Sam so she can do what she needs to do. So yes, I make the lunches and that kind of stuff as well. So yeah, and then so yeah, like I think yeah, like the more you can keep them, like doing what they need to do in their happy zone. So, yeah, so yeah, I did become a bit of a catch all. And I think probably, now I probably, I know what to look for now so I don’t have to get like quite as many catches …
Joy Bufalini 20:26
You’ll be fine over time. Exactly.
Samantha Riley 20:29
Totally. So how long, how long have you guys been in business now? So is that for, like together, say about four years? It was the pandemic, right ?
Joy Bufalini 20:40
Yes, four and a half years. January.
Samantha Riley 20:42
So four and a half years down the track. Joy, would you change it?
Joy Bufalini 20:49
Not at all. Never, ever, ever.
Samantha Riley 20:52
What was that, Brian?
Joy Bufalini 20:58
What he said? I don’t know right now. No, I’m so glad that we did it, honestly. And we’ll have to share some stories about like, how could boundaries and communication because when you’re working and you’re living in the same place, like I kind of missed it, actually, if I may say this, I kind of missed, you know, the days of like, everybody leaves the house, the kids go to school, and Brian goes to work and I could be in my zone and I have the house to myself. And like, suddenly, I guess I forgot to say that that was Brian was working from home for six months before he left his job. So it’s kind of like I was getting and being at home. But then when I was like, Oh, this isn’t going away and you know, the kids go to school, and Brian stays here, where this space, where’s the definition of life and business? It starts encroaching, right? So we had to find of like how did like, I don’t want to not like you. You can definitely say the same about me too. Sometimes we’ll be having just a regular conversation like Joy, would you please take your CEO hat off for a minute, please? Anyway, so I think it’s been about finding the boundaries of communication. Am I in business mode? Are you in business mode right now? Because I mean, just to be totally just funny, I noticed this the other day, I’m getting out of the shower. You know, Brian always has great ideas, so we’re getting out of the shower, thin hair and getting dressed. Brian, I got this idea and blah, blah, blah. And where does that happen in the corporate world?
Unknown Speaker 22:47
Never, I don’t know about you. It’s a sort of corporate …
Joy Bufalini 22:54
But then it’s encroaching on Brian’s time, you know, at 8am in the morning, maybe he doesn’t want to talk about that now, you know, and it’s just like my mind. Of course, you are usually more than me. But it’s like, is that person in a space? Is this the right time? You know, are they in business mode? Do they just need to just be, so like, knowing when it’s sometimes when it’s business hours, and when it’s not. It’s sometimes rather undefined. Or it’s like I was saying a Brian, it’s like, when you do have little kids, and you finally get a date and go out to dinner. It’s like, let’s not talk about the kids. Right? Yes. So like, let’s not talk about this tonight, you know, or this morning, or this weekend, or whatever the case may be.
Brian Bufalini 23:41
Happened actually last night.
Samantha Riley 23:44
No, no, you want to hear the story. I want to hear the story.
Brian Bufalini 23:49
Teacher, can I go next? Last night, we were tired. We have some big initiatives that we’re working on. And it’s a lot of fun. We’re enjoying it. But it’s eight o’clock and we’re shutting everything down. And just that night happened to me in particular, we were busy. And she, and I said okay, Joy usually tells me Look, no business, we’re not talking. So I’d be, I’d beat her to it. And I said, Okay, so we have this little game we’ve been playing in the last month or two. It’s like if you are going to say anything in business, you have to speak in a foreign accent. So know your place before we say anything, so say it in a foreign accent so or it can be in you know, I can speak in a southern accent or whatever you want. Slow down and really realise, do I really need to think about this right now. So it’s just like a little prompter that we use to kind of make fun. And then an old thing that we haven’t done yet, but I’m excited to do this at one point where we’re really like heads down, the only way that you can communicate with each other is if we text each other in a foreign language, that she’s telling me and I will respond in whatever foreign language and it doesn’t have to be. You have to figure out what it is.
Samantha Riley 25:26
Oh well, you know, make sure you definitely let us know when that happens. We’re here for it.
Joy Bufalini 25:32
For the emails.
Samantha Riley 25:39
That’s exactly right. He talks about the boundaries blurring between business and normal life, parenting life, home life, relationship life. I have not discovered this blurring thing. I’ve just discovered this whole everything is all in one top thing. It’s not even a blur. It’s just like, all there. How have you navigated that? Because I have to be brutally honest. I don’t think Leon and I do actually navigate that. I think we just leave in the pot. Would you agree with that Leon?
Leon Flitton 26:21
100%. Yeah. I think we are happy with it.
Samantha Riley 26:26
Totally.
Joy Bufalini 26:29
Yeah. For yourself and what you need and what works.,
Samantha Riley 26:34
Yeah, I think I was gonna say, I think it’s a little bit different for us, we don’t have kids at home. And I think that that makes that adds, like, that’s a whole piece of complexity that’s gone. Because I have done business with my ex-husband with children at home. And that’s a different dynamic. We don’t, we don’t have to deal with that dynamic. But for you guys, how do you navigate that? All of the things and still be able to look after your relationship, which is so important.
Unknown Speaker 27:08
Right, I was gonna say really silent there.
Samantha Riley 27:09
Really silent.
Joy Bufalini 27:14
Where do we go? We have just one left at home now. And he’s going into his senior year of college, so not here all the time. So it is more like, it’s a lot more together time. Like, it’s just he and I in the evening, you know, all of that, of course, we’ve been married for a much longer period of time too, I don’t know if that plays into it of you know, just like, hey, I want to, you know, we’re both, you know, going into our 50s now, and you know, like, what, you know, just enjoying this phase of life and everything. But we’ve had to at least like I have to turn my brain off. Like, there have been times where I just have to recharge, I have to turn my brain off. Like when I’m done with Zoom calls for the week, well, I love being on with clients and all the things like hey, no, so till next week, because just the introvert in me need some time to decompress and recharge. But we had kind of early on had to come up with a system of like, we can’t talk about all the things all the time. Now the kids were home too. And they were there. There was their stuff too. But I’m more of a compartmentalizer, I’m like, I’m in this brain space. I’m in this brain space, Brian could be in the pot of everything all the time. To be fair, he could be. I’m the one that really can’t be. So it’s like, you know, is this it? Send me an email. So literally, we send each other emails all day long. Like it’s not urgent. It’s just there for you, give me a deadline, you know, send me an email, or there’s the send me attacks like quick thing. I’m doing a grocery order. Do you need XYZ? Like literally in between my calls. Or it’s like, hey, I need a question answered. I know you’re offline. Knock knock knock on my office door. We have separate offices, which is important too like, knowing like, what does that mean? What is email? What is text worthy? And what is like I need to knock on your door worthy that’s really helped to like define that.
Brian Bufalini 29:05
The thing is, if it’s important, don’t text it. Because I’ll never, we’ll never remember it. That link. Didn’t you text me on like, I can’t remember if I texted it. But the thing is, then you’re searching through text history. And then oh, we were arguing that day, then oh, then you go back further. And it’s like, oh, we were out. We were doing this and it’s like, and then you get distracted and the squirrel brain. And so just email. It’s so much easier because you can search it.
Unknown Speaker 29:32
Yeah. Yeah.
Samantha Riley 29:35
I’m really glad that you mentioned separate offices, because that is something that Leon and I have too, and I think it’s really important because you need your own space when you’re working. And there’s so much going on in business, and there’s life and there’s all the other things that if you don’t have your own space, I think it can be really overwhelming.
Joy Bufalini 29:56
Absolutely. Like feeling like you have your door closed, and like you’re in this zone. And, you know, it’s not like an open office space where someone can tap on your shoulder at any moment. And if that’s your spouse that might really get on your nerves. Right. So we’ve even taken it a step further. I mean, even before we moved, and Brian was remote, there would be times where like, I book a conference room, or I book a remote workspace when he was working virtually, like I just need some space to myself, I don’t have space to myself anymore. I just need to work on a project or be heads down or just be in a different headspace. And that really helped.
Brian Bufalini 30:35
People that are thinking about, like, hey, making that move to working together, that’s a great first step is to like, is to get used to having your own space. And if you need some space, and that just makes it a little bit more comfortable, that you recognise that early. So that’s something that is important is to recognise and it’s taken me probably four years plus to recognise some things. One thing is to anticipate when she doesn’t want to talk to me. I need to anticipate, as Joy says I’m peopled out, right.
Joy Bufalini 31:10
Like a very full week of calls. You know, sometimes when he gets more phone calls.
Brian Bufalini 31:16
I didn’t even, it’s like you’re the first person I’ve seen all day. And I want to talk and find out how your day was honey, is like, no, that’s not happening. And you just need to know that and try not to be offended at that. Right. And those are things into it. If I could know that ahead of time, it’s like she needs space to be able to know that ahead of time before we would have started working together. That would have helped with the friction early on, for sure. Is to anticipate what needs and no one, okay, I need to just, and sometimes even there are days when she has been specifically heads down where it’s a no talking day.
Joy Bufalini 31:59
Yeah, so we did that when the kids were home during the pandemic. I’m like, Oh, right.
Brian Bufalini 32:05
So the only thing you do next. We tag stuff. It’s really important. So doing that, Joy really appreciated that because then the next day, it was like, Okay, I’ve had some space and things are back to normal. So that’s something we’ve done and it helps.
Samantha Riley 32:27
I absolutely love that. I love that. I know.
Joy Bufalini 32:32
There’s an idea, Leon.
Samantha Riley 32:34
Only because I know there’s some times that Leon will come and sort of poke his head in my office and he does,he looks like he’s the fear of God in Him. And sometimes I feel bad about that. And sometimes I think Well, I’m glad that you know that. I’m glad that you know what I mean by zoning, you need to leave me alone.
Leon Flitton 32:54
From my side is like I know she’s on Zoom calls a lot. And I’m so, I’m curious. Same as you, Joy, but it’s a lot. And you know, I need to talk to you about something but I’ve got to catch in between, but I don’t want to break it like mental flow state as well. And I’m like, I really didn’t know this, right. So yeah.
Brian Bufalini 33:15
I set my alarm at least once today to get her before she went to use the restroom, went and got something real quick and then got back on the next. I set my alarm to be able to get in that five minute window.
Joy Bufalini 33:36
You told me and ask me one thing. I have 15 minutes between calls, at least to be fair, but yeah, but you knew it, would you 10 minutes for those two things get a snack?
Brian Bufalini 33:46
Occasionally. She occasionally, yes. And I try to remind her of her own boundaries. But she was, for clients. And it’s like 10 till, it’s seven till it’s five till, like I’m never gonna be able to get this question before she’s on again.
Samantha Riley 34:10
I want to flip to personal time because Leon you’ve got a really I love that you’ve done this. And it actually makes me laugh all the time. You use our calendar quite well. Do you want to share what you do to look after our personal life?
Leon Flitton 34:26
Well, I actually book in like the events, like if it’s going to be you know, like a lunch or we go to breakfast. So I actually booked a, now I can book it in front of me.
Samantha Riley 34:39
So I was just in the office and I’ll see something pop up like, Oh, we’re going to dinner tomorrow night or oh, we’re going to have coffee in the morning and it will just pop up. Leon has invited you to coffee tomorrow morning. And he just pops it straight in the calendar because he’s like, No, I’m your husband and I want first dibs on her calendar, and I absolutely, I love that, like, it makes me feel really good and, and I love that he knows that we need time away to go and nurture us. And for me it’s, he always knows when I’m overworked or a little bit like, oh, I can’t sort of come up for air. And I’ll just see one of these pop up. And I’m like, you read the room perfectly babe. I love that. He’s almost like my personal concierge of looking after my mental health and my well being and, you know, and then we go, and we just take some time out of the business. And, and I think that that’s been a really great way for us to look after our relationship. Because that’s so important, because it’s so easy when you’re in business, right? To just let it bleed into 24/7. So easy. There’s not that clock off time. So, you know, do you guys have a booked in date night? Or, you know, do you book into each other’s calendars? Or how do you look after your relationship?
Brian Bufalini 36:13
Go ahead, Joy.
Joy Bufalini 36:14
We tend to be more spontaneous about it. It’s kind of like, okay, it’s five o’clock, we actually, Brian actually did make something for dinner that’s waiting for us. Thank you, Brian. It’s just, we’re just finishing up and it’s like, let’s go out tonight, we need some time out. So we’re a little bit more spontaneous about it, of like, let’s just do this, we’re just kind of feeling it in the moment. Like, let’s go to the beach today, you know, like a Friday afternoon or Saturday morning, or whatever we need to do. I would say the other thing too, that’s helped nurture a relationship is we’ve been more intentional about friendships, about going out with other couples, getting together with people, inviting people, we’re having a pool party at our house on Saturday with two other couples, we pool when both of women are local, they’re coaches, and you know, their husbands are great. So just like, I think that helps us to it’s like, not just he and I were nurturing relationships, and, you know, just enjoying the stage of life and having fun and not always just being he and I too. And by the way, it’s not easy. It takes time to find friendships with people that get you, like you said, working traditional jobs. You know, they’re kinda like, Oh, that’s cool, but they don’t really get it to really have some times, deeper conversations. And ideas of how we do it.
Brian Bufalini 37:32
Yeah, there are times we do book each other scheduled for like when we’re going to, so we have a condo on Stan Quay, and we book time, and I’ll tell Joy, like, when do you want to do this next? And we’ll specifically schedule a timeout of like, when you want to leave, when you want to get back? And what are we doing? So yeah, we definitely book time on each other’s schedules, if there’s something important, and occasionally we have meetings, I don’t know if you guys have meetings, but and then we’ll book time and we’ll book time sometimes against another meeting. So we won’t go along. You know, I gotta, I gotta be on here. So let’s shove it in and real close to something else. But sometimes you just, it’s strange that you have to book time with the person you’re living with. Like, when you’re working together. Sometimes it’s necessary.
Joy Bufalini 38:23
I think you’re right, it keeps it from bleeding into the life stuff. And like when you want to be enjoying life or whatever, or sometimes like there’s little cues you can give the other person like if, you know, I have my Kindle open, means I’m reading fiction and I’m relaxing. You know, I’m in that mode, you know, taking the cues from the other person of like, what they’re doing and what mode they’re in then and, or, you know, trying to get the business meetings, you know, in during the day, but leaving room for spontaneity. Brian, we definitely on a Friday or Saturday night, like normally when I’m in bed at 9:30, all of a sudden we just start like visioning some ideas and like it’s an hour later and you’re like you’re still awake and like I don’t know this actually energises me this time. So I think going with the flow is important too. Like is this work for me? Is this work for you? Is this like expanding us? Does it feel good? You know, and going with that flow.
Samantha Riley 39:18
Yeah. And I think that we’ve got the, what I love about being in business is we’ve got the opportunity to do that because even we’ve got an intensive coming up. So I’m working a lot and I was what, I was working on Sunday, and just, I’m working on a Sunday afternoon and Leon on, just went, put your shoes on. I went why, what’s going on is that we’re going to the beach right now. And we were like it was just like in the car we were going on. We’re going to the beach, he’s like no you need to get away from that you needed to clear you know, we needed to clear our head and we ended up going out for dinner and we had a great night and I definitely did not work anymore on that day, had a glass of wine, came home. So you know we’ve got the opportunity to do that. We wouldn’t be able to do that in a job. So that’s, you know, there’s the good and the bad, right, we’re able to balance both.
What I’d love to do, bit of a round robin, and I’m gonna start with you this time, Brian. Knowing what you know now about being in business with Joy, what is something that you wish you had, have done sooner?
Brian Bufalini 40:26
So something I wish I would have done sooner, I’ll put it in the context of like, you know, when we first started doing business together full time, I wish I would have, I wish I would have prepared myself a little bit more ahead of time to, to be prepared for not being the person that’s the star of the show financially, and not being the person that everybody relies on. And because like, for many people, that’s their fulfilment in life that I take care of everybody. And I wish I would have been more prepared for that, I wish I would have been more prepared to deal with the friction that inevitably will come up. So I can summarise it this way. Whatever your relationship is, like, before you start working together, full time together, whatever that relationship looks like, will be magnified 1000 times. Because now there’s no escape, you’re with each other, that you’re together. It’s a crucible. And it will, it will bring that, it will bring those insecurities to the top. And you’ll see it far more in contrast to what you may have normally tolerated in a relationship where you can leave each other every day and come back to it. That would have been planned out to begin with.
Samantha Riley 42:04
So well said. What about you, Joy? What do you wish you would have known sooner?
Joy Bufalini 42:12
I think I wish I would have known sooner what a void it would have created for him, even though he was already working from home and already be like really great dad as far as like, you know, doing what was needed and all of that, like that void of people and that void of like, knowing what to do every day that was just clear and obviously show up at work and know what projects to work on. So I think like having an actual role in place, or having some like, instead of being the catch all, which probably felt like shit. Initially, that would have been good to think ahead of, you know, and you know, he had a when we made a move years and years ago, it was just a time where, you know, he was between jobs and everything. And that really like, you know, it affects the guy, you know, a lot if it doesn’t have that identity, you know, can be a lot tied up in being the provider and you know, the role they fill. And just like duh, that was a miss for you Joy, you know, we were so caught up and all the things of like not seeing that. So recognising that really helped and probably sooner would have been better.
Samantha Riley 43:21
Things are much clearer in retrospect, aren’t they?
Unknown Speaker 43:24
Yes.
Samantha Riley 43:27
So Leon, what about you? What do you wish you would have known sooner about and this is weird, because I’m going to say about working with me.
Leon Flitton 43:44
So many things. Just kind of planning the back on, you know, the actual first day in the first week, so I think I probably slept heavily on tell them what to do. But one thing that came up and I’m probably going to be like, fit off tangent here, was how we both think it would have made it easier to work out things that are also things that things are the things that things here, earlier on where you know, Sam makes a decision in minus four milliseconds and I take like 10 minutes or longer and realising that would have made it smoother because like, just to prep me and answer the question and so I think if I you know, be a bit more aware of that I couldn’t help you know, deal with it better. So like so she loves superfast, broadband, and I’m on dial up so but, but working out how that you know, that works because I need to work in with Sam. I think realising that earlier would have made it a lot smooth.
Samantha Riley 44:52
Yeah, yeah, I want to actually layer on top of that, because that’s exactly what I was going to say as well, is understanding how different we both are. And for me, I think at the beginning, I didn’t have grace for that. You would go silent. And I’d be like, Oh, my God, hurry out, we got, we’ve got shit to do. You know, I didn’t understand the way you were, and you didn’t understand the way I was. And that almost made you put the brakes on even more, because you were afraid because I was, like, hurry up, and you’re like, like a deer in the headlights. Like, I don’t, I don’t know what the answer is.
Speaker 1 45:30
I don;t like being annoying to people, so like …
Samantha Riley 45:35
So I think that that’s definitely under, I guess this is exactly what Brian was saying, but in a different way, is understanding how each other are. And because when we’re with someone that’s in an office, we give more grace to that person, oh that’s the way they are. But when we’re in a relationship, we can actually let that fade away. And I think for us, that’s been the important part is understanding that this is the way that person is and just because they’re our partner, doesn’t mean that we can change that, you know, there’s that different dynamic. So it’s definitely about that. So I love that you brought that up.
I want to quickly touch on one last thing before we finish up and it’s friction. You mentioned that, Joy, just as a word. But there are going to be times, because you’re in a relationship, with friction is going to be very different to where there’s friction in an office. How do you guys deal with friction?
Joy Bufalini 46:37
The ongoing question, you know, outside of work, let’s just say a couple that each of them went to work separately every day, there are life things to decide, there are things about adult children, like, if I would recommend that to, no I feel this way about that, like there’s still life to discuss, or there’s things happening with parents or other family members, you know, where differences of opinions will come up, you know. So the thing is, is we’ve come a long way,Brian, I think where we can like, I have my opinion, I have my opinion. We can both have our opinion on this, it doesn’t have to be solid right away, I think. And it doesn’t have to be solved right away. But you sort of take that into the next day sometimes, even if you’re okay of like, now it wasn’t like we go our separate ways and kind of the energy clears. It’s like sometimes that comes up again in the middle of the day, you know, of like, well, we just talked about that last night and see, this is why I said that, you know, and so there’s sort of a life friction that just happens for everybody. I think it’s just a little more in your face when you’re working together, that there’s all the business decisions to make, which often, you know, they can feel like, you know, we’ll have this decision. You know, there’s money obviously involved, feels at stake and making the right decisions, you know, if you’re depending on what decisions you’re making together. So it can amp things up. Like Brian said, it just kind of intensifies what’s already there, then you bring like, the business decisions, the clients, the money, it kind of all into meshing together. Being able to, we’ve been sometimes using like little cues to like, we can both be a little stubborn. I’ll admit that. We both actually we’re a lot of like, in a lot of ways, like so we kind of, you know, hit against each other with the exact same patterns and like recognising that like one of us can like, tone this down. Let’s find common ground. Brian’s very good at finding common ground. I’m more of like, I want to talk this all out first. But he knows that about me, I know that about him. So that having some tools to like friction is going to happen. You’re a robot if there’s no friction.
Samantha Riley 48:57
100%. 100%. And Brian, have you come up with ways to navigate before it’s happening? So let me give you some context. This is something I haven’t experienced with Leon at all, but with my ex partner. Like if there was a decision that had to be made, I was like, Nope, this is my way. And he’d be like, No, this is my way. And we just realised that no, we had to be in like, a long way apart. This isn’t something that I’ve had to navigate with Leon at all. But you know, are there ways that, are there are things that come up that you see in advance, like, Yes, yeah.
Brian Bufalini 49:39
100%. So just today, there’s this little formula. It’s a great little tip I learned from corporate and when I explained it first to Joy, we were having an issue just after right having moved to Florida, and it was before actually, you know, I came full time working with Joy andit after sitting in for a couple of days with trying to figure out what’s going on. And it just, it was just one thing after another, it wasn’t between Joy and I, it was just with the whole newness of everything. And then I realised, and we were in then we were bickering at each other over the little stuff, right? It was nothing to do with what we’re dealing with at the time. And then I realised this, this little formula I learned, and it really makes sense. And this is one thing that’s really helped us. And now even today, I said, Joy, let’s use this little formula, because what we got coming up tomorrow, even, there’s going to be a lot of activity and a lot of, and there’s going to be a lot of opportunity for a little bit of friction to come up here and there. And that formula is “storming, norming, performing.” So when a team gets together for the first time, a lot of times, or you have a new worker, new, anything new and when things are running normally, this doesn’t happen. There’s no friction, because it’s all anticipatory. But when it’s new, and you know what’s going on, and there’s problems and things break and glass gets broken, and people’s feelings get hurt or whatever. That’s the storming period, right. And then after you go through that storming period, then there’s a normalisation time where it’s like, okay, everything is normal, we can anticipate things a little bit more. And then you have performing where it’s like we stood up the, we built this program, and now it’s working. And it’s working good capacity is performing what we want. And to understand when we’re going through each phase is really, really helpful. And to be able to anticipate when something might go wrong, when something, when that’s when change is happening, or when we make change and on ourselves right of what’s going on, to recognise ahead of time that there might be some storming involved, kind of, kind of takes the pressure off to not not get into the friction that could have been there.
Samantha Riley
I love that so much.
Joy Bufalini 51:59
He did send me an email today that said tomorrow starts this new initiative, it’ll be in storming phase, let’s remember that.
Joy Bufalini 52:10
We are alerted, because we’re going to be almost like 50-50 engaged in this particular initiative. So we’ll be like working together very closely, and might be a lot of activity in the next week. So thank you for that reminder, Brian.
Samantha Riley 52:24
That is so good. Because I know, actually, I love that so much. Because I feel like we could use that Leon on for us. Because for me, I’m actually, gosh, how do I say this, you start to notice the way that you react more when your partner’s there. So I would say if I’m coming up to like a big project, and it’s normally like and put it in air quotes when I’m on. So when, for example, if we’re running an event, I know because I’ve been running events for over 30 years that the day before, don’t talk to me. I didn’t realise that before. You know, like, I didn’t realise how much I would just shut people down. And I think it actually wasn’t until I was with Leon, where he would look like oh my god, what has she done to me? And to me, I hadn’t realised that that’s what I was like, because I was just like, I’m in my I’m really in my zone. So I’m guessing Leon that you’ve learned something similar to what Brian’s talked about, without me even realising until this moment.
Leon Flitton 53:37
Yeah, well, I did realise those things happen. So yeah, yeah, yeah. But there’s also I get well, you know, if you’re, I know lots, lots of pressure, I’m here to support. I’m here for it.
Brian Bufalini 53:51
I appreciate it. People, when you’re in this situation, it’s hard to find people to really understand and empathise. Right. And so like we’re getting together with friends. But both those guys, they’re married to entrepreneurial women. And they, now they don’t work together that well a little bit. No one does. But it’s like, it’s like that doesn’t matter to me. The fact that you’re married to a woman who’s an entrepreneur, that’s all that matters to me, so there’s going to be some great time, you know, hanging out and enjoying some you know, bonding time like that to just like yeah, yeah, this happens in my house. Oh, yeah. Well, this happens in my house too. It’s all in good, and it’s all in good faith. And it’s all in good fun, but it helps to collaborate. So it seemed to you Leon that was a pleasure, getting to know you guys, a little a couple of months and the synergy between you two is just it’s a bedrock.
Samantha Riley 54:53
Yeah, and likewise, sorry, Joy.
Joy Bufalini 54:56
I feel like we need to hear a funny story of you guys. I feel like we just shared one or two. And I feel like we need to hear a day in the life, or a moment or something funny.
Samantha Riley 55:10
Yeah, Leon, can you think of anything?
Joy Bufalini
Oh, I bet.
Leon Flitton 55:15
That shows Sam and how her brain thinks, well, we were obviously engaged at the time, but we’re going to get married, but we hadn’t quite decided where yet. And so she was Googling something or other and she goes, what about this? And like, and then like about now that she’s already booked the wedding, which happened to be in Alaska on a glacier. But you must really love me. Yeah.
Samantha Riley 55:51
I think that story shows how crazy I, like entrepreneurs are, it’s just like, yeah, we’re doing this thing. And we just do it. And yes, you’re right. I had organised our wedding in an hour, on the other side of the world.
Brian Bufalini 56:10
Like, I can totally see that.
Samantha Riley 56:15
So now, anyone that’s listening, you can feel sorry for Leon, because that’s exactly how every day is in our house.
Leon Flitton 56:25
That’s how she rolls
Samantha Riley 56:27
100%. And you know what, it’s not just me, it’s just about every entrepreneur I know. Right? Like, that’s, that’s why we do what we do. I think I’ve absolutely loved this conversation for so many reasons, because it shows that there is a transition period that definitely needs to be talked about, because I’ve heard about this story, you know, in silos, but I think that it needs to be a bigger conversation, because there’s this, you know, romantic thought of I want to retire my husband and have him come work with me, but there’s a lot of dynamics that need to be nurtured for both sides of the relationship to ensure that not just the business works, but the relationship continues. And this conversation, like, I can tell, you guys, you wouldn’t have it any other way. Right? And we wouldn’t either, because as much as there is all this stuff to navigate, like how lucky are we that we can just decide that we’re going to go and go on holiday tomorrow or go on vacation tomorrow, or, you know, just actually I’ve had enough of today, we’re going out for lunch, you can’t have that in other, in other things. And you know, we’ve got the freedom to be able to do that, we’ve got the ability to create our income so that we can do that. And for everything that we’ve talked about, like it’s just such, we’re so like, I can say this for Leon and I, we’re so blessed to be in this position and so grateful that we’ve you know that we’ve created this life for us, you know, and I can tell that you two are such a beautiful couple and so much you know, you have so much love and appreciation and respect for each other. And I think that really at the end of the day that’s what it’s all about to make it work, really need to have you know, keep that love that respect that appreciation there so, thank you so much for coming and talking about this. I feel like Brian you had something to say. Is there anything you want to finish off with?
Brian Bufalini 58:25
No, I just wanna say really agreed with everything you said. The love and respect is there and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I completely agree with that. I don’t know if Joy feels the same.
Samantha Riley 58:38
I know Joy feels the same because she’s told me.
Joy Bufalini 58:44
Totally worth it. And it’s just such a just a privilege and like you said a gift to be able to be in creative space of your life you know and have choices and enjoy the journey and you know not be stuck by somebody else’s roles or working for somebody else and just to, just to really create the lifestyle that you want and to do it together is the best.
Brian Bufalini 59:14
I will say that from retiring your husband out standpoint that is a complete misnomer. I have never felt safe.
Samantha Riley 59:23
I’m glad you picked up on that … because I see it in marketing all the time, I retired my husband so that’s where it came from. But there is this part that I always go retired my husband? I don’t know about you guys but I work my husband way …
Brian Bufalini 59:51
Right, Where are these guys? I don’t know what I gotta do.
Samantha Riley 59:57
Leon, is there anything that you wanna finish off with?
Leon Flitton 1:00:02
I just think it’s been great. And there’s some great points been brought up andI’d love to do it again.
Samantha Riley 1:00:08
I would love to do it again. Thank you. Absolutely. Thanks so much Joy and Brian for joining me. Thanks so much Leon because I threw, you know, that could have gone bad for you. Not gonna work. I know you’re a little bit nervous with what I would throw out there. So thank you all for being vulnerable and sharing. Thank you.
Joy Bufalini 1:00:29
Thank you for creating this space.
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